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**scarygirl67** · 10-18-2010, 10:17 AM

Eh, I think it is quite possible. A discussion getting heated (within reason) gets people reading and thinking about the topic at hand, in my opinion.

I've talked many times here about my experiences in the house I grew up in. When I was younger, I didn't so much to the people I knew because the few times I did share, I got ridiculed. How funny....years later when a book was written about the hauntings in my area...all of a sudden everyone and his dog had a haunted house!! Where were these people when I needed to talk to someone about it? Oh that's right...they were making fun of me, the "ghost girl".

All it took was a few books about it...and the power of suggestion took over.

beauseant · (This post was last modified: 10-18-2010 10:58 AM by beauseant.)

K2M, you and SG are so right! I think we three are kindred spirits or something.

You know, the funny part is, when people find I that my family and I don't go to church, they assume we are not religious. And the complete opposite is true. We are a very religious family. When we decided to buy a horse companion for our other horse, Epona, we prayed constantly for God's guidance. It may sound silly to pray for guidance in picking out a horse, but it is actually a VERY big deal. Picking the wrong horse can cost you your life. We're not horse temprament experts, so we went into this blindly. And we tried to follow where God was leading...but he lead us to....an ex race horse????!!! Known for their violence and hot tempers???? It took ALOT, and I do mean ALOT of faith to follow through on it and buy this ex race horse.....alot of faith. But we kept telling ourselves, we prayed for guidance and we ended up where we least expected God to lead us....standing in front of a starving and injured ex race horse....the most feared of all horses, a Thoroughbred. 7 months later: This horse has become so much more important to our family than we ever dreamed. He is not hot tempered, nor is he a vicious monster....he is my true kindred spirit. He is me in horse clothing.... I love him so much. And Epona, she is my son in horse clothing.....she is the light of his life. THese horses are as much a part of this family as any blood bond could make....perhaps even deeper than that. A bond, not of blood, but of souls. Moral of the story: Follow where God leads you, even if it seems unlikely or scary at the time....and along the way you will find blessings, love and light....in our case, standing on four legs times 2.

sorry...rambling again. Icontexto-emoticons-09-032x032

Just wanted to say K2M, you're right.....you don't need a CHURCH to find God, not if you carry Him with you in your heart....that way He is always with you, wherever you may be.

And thank you so much for your kind words, dear lady. *hugs*

NateSean · 10-18-2010, 02:08 PM

Heck, I do it every day at Staples.

You come in wanting to buy a simple computer. I sell you a product replacement plan, tech support service, accessories and your own liver by using a simple repetitive schpiel that includes horror stories from incidents where someone did not have the plan and genuine statistics and facts that make it a good idea to buy it.

*MAP* · 10-23-2010, 03:47 PM

(10-18-2010 02:08 PM)NateSean Wrote: Heck, I do it every day at Staples.

You come in wanting to buy a simple computer. I sell you a product replacement plan, tech support service, accessories and your own liver by using a simple repetitive schpiel that includes horror stories from incidents where someone did not have the plan and genuine statistics and facts that make it a good idea to buy it.

LOL I am one of those suckers, I buy extended warrenty on all my electronics lol Icontexto-emoticons-09-032x032

but hey they are worth it!

As far as my thoughts being led, I can say with a resounding hell yeah they have. I am human and respond to triggers just like every other human. Im sure those who are smarter than I can avoid a certain amount of it by being aware of the tactics. But I can be a bit too trusting and nieve.

~MAP

Ishamael · 10-23-2010, 05:05 PM

This is both an answer to your question, and a warning to many others.

Don't say, "I can't be influenced." The truth is, EVERYONE can be influenced. There are both non-paranormal influences, and paranormal influences. The truth of the matter is that both work in roughly the same ways. Where the general public get influenced is in semantics and the sweetness of what is being said to them.

They believe that what they are receiving is a great deal of some sort. This is simply spinning something the way you want it to go. Then you have the more difficult people to convince. An easy way to convince those people is through fear.

Fear is a great convincing mechanism. Other types of influence are peer-pressure, extortion, black-mail, and (last but not least) bartering. No one person on this earth can claim to be uncontrollable/can't be influenced. When someone kidnaps your loved ones, you are listening and influenced quite well, aren't you?

Here in lies the warning. Do not believe you are invincible! You are human, humans are imperfect. Imperfection is nowhere close to invincible.

beauseant · (This post was last modified: 10-24-2010 07:56 AM by beauseant.)

Who said they were invincible?? I'd like to meet that person.

Sounds like it would be fun to be invincible..... Icontexto-emoticons-01-032x032

Ish, I think you are equating being stubborn with being invincible. Don't know how that came about?!

IF you are referring to me, then I would say you are way off the mark of what was said by me and are spinning off into some invincibilty rant.

NO ONE said they were in invicible. I PERSONALLY said I was not easily influenced, and I am not. I know myself, you do not know me AT ALL. If i say that I am not easily influenced, am stubborn and a free thinker, and have been told by people in my life..i.e. FAMILY MEMBERS...that I am uncontrollable....then I guess you'll just have to take their and my words for it.

Oh, and by the way.....kidnapping a family member is NOT INFLUENCING someone to do something, it is FORCE>

FORCE IS NOT THE SAME AS INFLUENCE.

Definition: influence n. A power affecting a person, thing, or course of events, especially one that operates without any direct or apparent effort

If you kidnap someone there is BOTH direct and apparent effort

So, IMO....kidnapping, extortion, etc that require EFFORT is not true influencing....it is forcing someone to do something against their will. And if it is done AGAINST THEIR WILL, then you haven't really influenced them, only forced them. To my way of thinking, the two arent related at all.

So, sure, I can be forced to do things...i.e. with a knife to my throat, gun to my head, or to save a loved one from a kidnapper....but that isn't affecting someone's FREE WILL CHOICES. THAT is force. Not influence.

Ishamael · 10-24-2010, 09:06 PM

(10-24-2010 07:42 AM)beauseant Wrote: Oh, and by the way.....kidnapping a family member is NOT INFLUENCING someone to do something, it is FORCE>

FORCE IS NOT THE SAME AS INFLUENCE.

Definition: influence n. A power affecting a person, thing, or course of events, especially one that operates without any direct or apparent effort

If you kidnap someone there is BOTH direct and apparent effort

So, IMO....kidnapping, extortion, etc that require EFFORT is not true influencing....it is forcing someone to do something against their will. And if it is done AGAINST THEIR WILL, then you haven't really influenced them, only forced them. To my way of thinking, the two arent related at all.

So, sure, I can be forced to do things...i.e. with a knife to my throat, gun to my head, or to save a loved one from a kidnapper....but that isn't affecting someone's FREE WILL CHOICES. THAT is force. Not influence.

Taking that same definition, said knife to the throat is still a "power affecting a person, thing, or course of events". The "especially without any direct or apparent force" is not an explicit statement. The "especially" is the key in the semantics. It is not required to not have that direct or apparent force, but it can still fall under "influencing".

Furthermore, seeing as "free will" is absolute, even in the face of adversity can you choose to do whatever you want to do. Knife to the throat? You can still attack the guy. Driving down the road, you can still choose to drive into oncoming traffic, if you so wanted.

My point is, we govern the path of our own lives. Therefore, we always have free will. Thus, we are never "forced" to do anything, merely influenced.

beauseant · (This post was last modified: 10-25-2010 07:49 AM by scarygirl67.)

I disagree that a knife to the throat influencing you to hand over your wallet is the same as buying a vaccum cleaner that you don't really need from a really good salesman who has convinced you that only HIS model can get your house as clean as it needs to be. Icontexto-emoticons-01-032x032

IMO, one is force, the other is influence.

I also disagree that we are never "forced" to do anything. The city I live in has sent me a notice that our sidewalk in front of our house needs repaired, which will cost a couple of thousand dollars. If it is not done, we face a 1,000 dollar fine per day and/or jail time. THAT is force....

By your definition, a rapist holding a knife to a woman's throat is INFLUENCING her to have sex with him, not FORCING her to...and that the rape is not really rape because she had FREE WILL to choose to allow the rape or be stabbed. In a court of law, by your definition, the rapist should not be found guilty as the woman allowed herself to be raped by not using her FREE WILL. The same would apply to the thousands of children that are raped and molested each day...they allowed it by their own FREE WILL That is what you are saying.

Quote:My point is, we govern the path of our own lives. Therefore, we always have free will. Thus, we are never "forced" to do anything, merely influenced.

Very twisted way of thinking, may I add.

So, you want to play the word game? OK.... they are INFLUENCING us to fix the sidewalk through FORCE and THREATS. In this case, as in kidnapping or being threatened with weapons, your free will flies out the window. Because our FREE WILL would dictate that we do not want to spend thousands of dollars to fix a sidewalk (nor would anyone choose of their own free will to be raped or stabbed or to hand over our wallet)..... unfortunately, we are being FORCED to.

So save your rhetoric and play on words. I'm not buying it. Neither would a court of law, nor the children who are being molested each day..neither would all the rape victims in the world ...Friend. Blueud

So...in summation .... per Ishamael's definition of influence and free will, anyone who (including any forum members) has been

1)a victim of armed robbery

2)molested as a child/teen

3)raped

4)assaulted

5)had a friend or loved one murdered

6)been car jacked

were victims of such crimes, not due to force, rather because of their own FREE WILL in allowing themselves to be INFLUENCED by the perpetrators to allow such things to be done to them. ..... because Ishamael says

Quote:we govern the path of our own lives. Therefore, we always have free will. Thus, we are never "forced" to do anything, merely influenced.

I'll say it again, you have a twisted way of thinking. I doubt you will find many supporters of your theory.

Ishamael · 10-25-2010, 08:49 AM

(10-25-2010 06:28 AM)beauseant Wrote: I also disagree that we are never "forced" to do anything. The city I live in has sent me a notice that our sidewalk in front of our house needs repaired, which will cost a couple of thousand dollars. If it is not done, we face a 1,000 dollar fine per day and/or jail time. THAT is force....

No, that is called a law. Laws are acknowledged social contracts that we make within a group of like-minded people, for the protection of society. Laws are written words. Thus, you can choose to not pay, just as much as you can choose to pay. You can also move; you can do anything you want to in regards to that. However, as with anything in life, there are consequences. This freedom deems the above: Not force. It can't be.

(10-25-2010 06:28 AM)beauseant Wrote: By your definition, a rapist holding a knife to a woman's throat is INFLUENCING her to have sex with him, not FORCING her to...and that the rape is not really rape because she had FREE WILL to choose to allow the rape or be stabbed. In a court of law, by your definition, the rapist should not be found guilty as the woman allowed herself to be raped by not using her FREE WILL. The same would apply to the thousands of children that are raped and molested each day...they allowed it by their own FREE WILL

Yes and no. This is not twisted thinking, this is just the expression of a viewpoint. It might be an extremely effective form of influence, but it is still influence. What you need to understand is that the option to resist or concede is always there. As long as there are options, free will is in play. Force is a physical attribute of our universe; thus, force must be physically applied upon a person to be used.

Rape is still wrong, because society has deemed it such. Laws have been passed to deter people from committing rape. It is just as much their choice to ignore those laws as it is your's to ignore paying that $1000 dollars. Therefore, in the court of law, yes you are right. The excuse would not work, because of the laws put in place.

(10-25-2010 06:28 AM)beauseant Wrote: So, you want to play the word game? OK.... they are INFLUENCING us to fix the sidewalk through FORCE and THREATS. In this case, as in kidnapping or being threatened with weapons, your free will flies out the window. Because our FREE WILL would dictate that we do not want to spend thousands of dollars to fix a sidewalk (nor would anyone choose of their own free will to be raped or stabbed or to hand over our wallet)..... unfortunately, we are being FORCED to.

So save your rhetoric and play on words. I'm not buying it. Neither would a court of law, nor the children who are being molested each day..neither would all the rape victims in the world ...Friend.
So...in summation .... per Ishamael's definition of influence and free will, anyone who (including any forum members) has been

1)a victim of armed robbery

2)molested as a child/teen

3)raped

4)assaulted

5)had a friend or loved one murdered

6)been car jacked

were victims of such crimes, not due to force, rather because of their own FREE WILL in allowing themselves to be INFLUENCED by the perpetrators to allow such things to be done to them. ..... because Ishamael says
Quote:we govern the path of our own lives. Therefore, we always have free will. Thus, we are never "forced" to do anything, merely influenced.

I'll say it again, you have a twisted way of thinking. I doubt you will find many supporters of your theory.

Firstly, it's not a matter of finding supporters in my theory. I am simply proposing a viewpoint. Secondly, "they are INFLUENCING us to fix the sidewalk through FORCE and THREATS." I completely agree! Except with the force statement, because that force does not fall under the category of being force. Thirdly, I do believe there is an instance where free will is thrown out the window. That instance is: If you are helpless (your movement is fully restricted, you are unconscious, asleep, etc.)

If you can't consciously make a decision of your own free will, then your free will is limited. Yes, people can limit your free will in that way, but the point is that for all of these other areas, while you are able to consciously make a decision, it is influence. Furthermore, more often than not, to get you to the point where they can limit your free will, they would end up using actual force to accomplish this. Or, in the case of sleep or mentally handicapped, they can simply just use force to take what they want from you.

The fact about a court of law is that they are run by laws. These laws have consequences if you do not follow them. Break a law, get punished. At that point, it doesn't matter what your excuse was, you re going to become somebody's jail-time body-buddy, very soon.

UglyNRude · (This post was last modified: 10-25-2010 09:00 AM by UglyNRude.)

I think your both right to an extent.

Force definition: power to influence, affect, or control; efficacious power: the force of circumstances; a force for law and order.

persuasive power; power to convince: They felt the force of his arguments.

Under physics: an influence on a body or system, producing or tending to produce a change in movement or in shape or other effects.

Now the definition of influence.
the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract.

the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay.

a person or thing that exerts influence: He is an influence for the good.

Influence and force are similar. So that said lets get back to the original intent of this post. using hypnosis or influence to force you to do something. Example: There are all kinds of haunted tours of prisons and old insane asylums, in advance you are told the place is haunted and a great many horrible things happened to people that stayed there. So going in to tour or investigate I see thousands of people that come out thinking they experienced one of these feelings, or captured a ghost or apparition. They were in some ways influenced or forced to have this happen. This is what keeps these places popular. Now does it happen to everyone? No some people are just more open to suggestion then others.