Irrefutable Proof God Doesn't Exist

[Ali]

(04-23-2011 04:57 AM)UglyNRude Wrote:  According to many its ok to make claims and then not prove it. I am surprised people ask for proof. Its ok to hold discussions about it but according to many on here we shouldn't call out those who make claims of proof. So with this new wonderful thinking we can take steps backwards. I can make claims like this without proving it.

I have no problem when people say they experienced ghosts or demons and this is what helps this forum move forwards. We can discuss it and offer other possibilities. What I do have a problem with is when a person keeps making claims they have evidence, proof through months of study then refuse to share it. Even when they are offered to do it privately. THAT is what can destroy a forum. Can you imagine all the CLAIMS I can now state I have proof of and don't need to prove it. You can do one of a few things, think I'm full of it, looking for attention or believe me and put me on a pedestal.

What should you do? Question every claim made, seek your own answers.

Now so those that want to see proof you can read this. Is it proof? Once again only you can decide.
http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm

First, I want to say I have learn a lot over the past year and a half with our discussions on Talk Paranormal. I have always tried to find a logical explanation to any situation that could be deemed "paranormal". I pride myself in belonging to a forum that can discuss/debate without hitting below the belt.

I do take exception to the multiple threads lately where members are being called out to provide proof. I have not seen where a member has stated they have indisputable proof/evidence, to be called out. I have read stories/experiences. If I have missed the post, please PM me. (Please, do not post it here)

We are here to learn, and share. I do not care how long anyone has been the field. I do not care how many teams, or investigations have been done. I have been experiencing odd things all my life, but I will not act as though I am an expert. None of us are.

I want to learn from members experiences/facts. Not everything can be taken at face value. I weigh what is plausible verses what could be cause by an outside influence. I have read some amazing accounts, and some scenarios that could be a screenplay. Regardless, to the poster they are real. No one should be belittled, or felt they are unable to post here. Think about all the members we have been able to help.

Honestly, I have not felt comfortable to post my recent experiences, even though the majority can be validated by another that was present. It would be one thing to have members question the occurrences, but I will not be put in the position to defend myself. I know what happened, but have no proof. Unfortunately, spirits do not stop and pose for pictures for me.

Debates such as this one, are the reason I joined this forum. I lurked for a long time prior to joining. I watched a heated discussion taking place. It never crossed the line of disrespect for the members involved.

I do think we are the greatest paranormal forum on the internet. We do need to continue to help others, offer advice, question the unknown. But, calling out members for something they never mention they have, is wrong. The majority of us here are adults, and we need to act accordingly.

---

(04-23-2011 11:58 AM)UglyNRude Wrote:  I will say I will always call out a person that makes a claim they have PROOF if this forum wants to be all believers I have no problem getting banned.

I believe anyone that does make a claim of proof needs to provide the proof. I do not know about anyone else, but I am yet to hear/see anything on audio, or visual, on the internet that I would say is paranormal. The whole orb thing drives me crazy.

Who said anything about banning? What would be TP be without our resident skeptic?

[1TxLady]

Ali and WM, I couldn't agree with you more.

In all fairness, no one can say we don't have proof something occurred because there isn't an acceptable photo or video....God or otherwise.

I can't provide anyone proof of any of my personal experiences, paranormal or otherwise to any of you. Why? Because you have not walked my path nor been by my side when life happened, paranormal or not, spiritual or not.

That said, being told I am "wrong" or taken to task to provide whatever concrete proof would be acceptable (and rarely is anything going to be proof positive to a hardened skeptic) is just antagonistic, not inquisitive or offering up other options (which is a whole hellalot different than being taken to task). This is a discussion forum. I find that many of the members here are looking for a place to share experiences or learn from others. Sometimes skeptics can be as closed or more closed than believers.

I say to everyone on here...be kind to others in the way you respond. Yes, I have taken a few to task for the way in which they responded to a post of another person. Why? Because it was down right offensive and rude. There are ways to express opinions and beliefs and have a healthy discussion without being offensive or pompous, neither of which are desired traits. Simply raising a question or two, or an "have you thought about this" is much more palatable to all. If one has not experienced what another has or thinks they have, one cannot proclaim it doesn't exist or they didn't experience that.

Offering up possible credible explanations outside the paranormal for an experience is one thing. Publicly deriding others is entirely another thing. Sometimes it's as simple as agree to disagree.

Please understand many often come here after an experience or event that troubles them in some way which means that experience or experiences are also chock full of emotion. Many are asking what can this be? What can it mean? They want plausible solutions, sometimes even kindred spirits ( no pun). Emotions can run the gambit of fear, confusion, pain and even loneliness. They are often not only looking to share but to be accepted because they have no one in their life who understands or may have experienced the same or perhaps they learned they can't talk about what happens to them because the ones close to them tell them guess what?? They are shunned or told they are wrong! Maybe they are wrong...and maybe they aren't wrong.

We've all had some experiences we thought were paranormal when in fact they weren't and were explained later through debunking. I have had experiences that have been debunked beyond debunk and witnessed by others but I still cannot provide even one of you "proof positive" because it's my experience...you weren't there.. you didn't witness it .. so it becomes moot. Like, Ali, they don't stop for a photo session.

I honestly wish for all skeptics of the world, not just here, that just once they have a soul altering paranormal experience. Then you'll know. Oh and btw.... there is a God in my humble OPINION

Just be kind to others and treat them like you want them to treat your baby sister or baby brother or your mom or your daughter or the little old lady down the street...and not necessarily just yourself... great weekend for reminding us all of that.

[scarygirl67]

I agree, claims of PROOF should be backed up or should not be made. I think offering other explanations helps us learn more. As Ali said, having logical and common sense posts to refer to has made a lot of my experiences more understandable to me.

Logic is a paranormal investigators best friend. It is also good for those exploring religion and God. I consider myself a Christian in that I believe in Jesus Christ as Savior. I haven't proof of that...and for as outlandish as that belief may be to some, don't think it isn't something I haven't questioned. Surprise...I don't think the Bible is infallible. I also don't claim to be right...it is just what I believe at this point in my life. But I do not believe it without question..and in my mind, it has made me more open to learning.

The link UNR provided is a perfect example of "you be the judge"..because all of those things can be taken in a different context for the believer and for the non-believer. But claiming proof is a pretty hard-nosed call...and there are those just as hard nosed who will call that claim out.

[John_M]

(04-23-2011 11:58 AM)UglyNRude Wrote:  I will say I will always call out a person that makes a claim they have PROOF if this forum wants to be all believers I have no problem getting banned.

I understand your point. The claim of proof should not be made without said evidence.

[scarygirl67]

(04-23-2011 04:46 PM)John_M Wrote:  

(04-23-2011 11:58 AM)UglyNRude Wrote:  I will say I will always call out a person that makes a claim they have PROOF if this forum wants to be all believers I have no problem getting banned.

I understand your point. The claim of proof should not be made without said evidence.

Thanks wasn't enough John...very well said!

[beauseant]

All very well said...BUT celtic NEVER claimed proof in her post.

IMO, she deserves an apology.

[scarygirl67]

This isn't about one member in particular. This is about people who make claims of proof.

Claiming proof of something that everyone has different beliefs on is a tricky business. For one thing..a belief (or non belief) is basically under fire at that point. Whether it is ghosts, demons, angels, God, government monies (okay, I threw that one in there)...finding proof is something that no one has done. The only proof they have is subjective..their own experience with it. Nothing has proven that these things exist consistently. Those that question and call out to see that proof....guess what? THEY ARE LOOKING FOR IT TOO! They would like to see it. Not to belittle or tear it apart...if there is proof, this will answer questions for so many people, including those who are skeptical of its existence. If it is indeed proof..it will speak for itself.

But sharing an experience...I'm sorry, I don't see those attacked. Not by respected members of this forum anyway. Questioned maybe....and certainly subject to interpretation. Feeling attacked is subjective as well. One person may have a thicker skin and things don't get to them...others will be offended at the most minor slight. It can depend on what kind of day the person has had when they read a post.

All I am saying is that beliefs are subject to interpretation. Proof consists of facts. Beliefs can and should be discussed..and I for one have seen some amazing discussions take place on this forum. And yes..there have been those who declare proof in the paranormal field as well as religion. Those claims should be called out..and make no mistake about this. If you are on this forum, and if you claim proof of something...no moderator here will object if that proof is questioned. Now granted, once the question has been asked and if the proof is not produced...continuing to pursue it at that point is most likely not going to get anyone anywhere. But questions will be asked if proof is claimed...and that is supported by this forum.

If you say you can prove it then do so.

[beauseant]

(04-24-2011 07:24 AM)scarygirl67 Wrote:  This isn't about one member in particular. This is about people who make claims of proof.

Claiming proof of something that everyone has different beliefs on is a tricky business. For one thing..a belief (or non belief) is basically under fire at that point. Whether it is ghosts, demons, angels, God, government monies (okay, I threw that one in there)...finding proof is something that no one has done. The only proof they have is subjective..their own experience with it. Nothing has proven that these things exist consistently. Those that question and call out to see that proof....guess what? THEY ARE LOOKING FOR IT TOO! They would like to see it. Not to belittle or tear it apart...if there is proof, this will answer questions for so many people, including those who are skeptical of its existence. If it is indeed proof..it will speak for itself.

But sharing an experience...I'm sorry, I don't see those attacked. Not by respected members of this forum anyway. Questioned maybe....and certainly subject to interpretation. Feeling attacked is subjective as well. One person may have a thicker skin and things don't get to them...others will be offended at the most minor slight. It can depend on what kind of day the person has had when they read a post.

All I am saying is that beliefs are subject to interpretation. Proof consists of facts. Beliefs can and should be discussed..and I for one have seen some amazing discussions take place on this forum. And yes..there have been those who declare proof in the paranormal field as well as religion. Those claims should be called out..and make no mistake about this. If you are on this forum, and if you claim proof of something...no moderator here will object if that proof is questioned. Now granted, once the question has been asked and if the proof is not produced...continuing to pursue it at that point is most likely not going to get anyone anywhere. But questions will be asked if proof is claimed...and that is supported by this forum.

If you say you can prove it then do so.

Very nicely said. And since Celtic did not claim proof, she should not have been called to produce it!

If anyone finds fault with above statement, then they are ignoring the facts.
Simple and direct.

[nowhere]

If “claims of PROOF should be backed up or should not be made,” wouldn’t it follow that claims that such posts were made, be proven, or not made?

[scarygirl67]

This is not about one member. This is about those who make claims of proof. Simple as that.