Evidence of demonic possession?

[mari]

(03-29-2011 03:52 PM)lightkeeper Wrote:  Welcome to the forum Mari. Mental illness could certainly account for symptoms connected with demonic possession.Drug use & abuse could also be responsible especially regarding 'super human'
strenght. Very slight/skinny men on pcp have often taken 6+ cops to subdue them.
I medeval times almost everything that has since proved to be a mental disorder was attributed to demonic possession.

Who can tell us WHY would demons possess regular folks ?
Wouldn't it serve more purpose to possess the powerful politians or the rich movers & shakers ? Perhaps they do.
Or do you think it's more a matter of getting hold of those that are available & susseptible ?

There are reports of demonic oppression and manifestation of saints/holy people so it is definitely not reserved for those who are susceptible or open themselves up to it. In these cases, the demonic attacks occur for the very reason that the person is very holy and the effort is to break the person of their faith. Of course, there are also those that have some hurt or trauma or pain and open themselves to this kind of attack and lastly, there are those that actually do something to encourage demonic presences.

I would also propose that there are individuals who are possessed of goodness or some sort of grace. Persons like Ghandi or Saints would be persons that I consider also possessed- but possessed of a holy spirit, a spirit that encourages altruism and kindness. In addition, in the same way that demonic oppression can occur, it stands to reason that some individuals seem divinely blessed and have positive experiences.

In other words, a good theory needs to explain not only one position, but provide an explanation for alternative events.

[lightkeeper]

How might one be able to tell the difference between a possession
or a mental illness ?
Can ouija boards & seances open a portal to possession ?

[mari]

First of all, in any individual case, you would need to have someone qualified to identify a mental/physical disorder or rule it out. Secondly, it would seem that if one treated the person for mental illness and the therapy or medication was ineffective, then another explanation may be at hand.

In addition, there is no rule that says a person who has mental illness may not also be under some kind of malevolent attack. Lastly, and as I said before, it does concern me that the intensity of an exorcism could in fact exacerbate mental illness so it would seem that one would have to move forward with that prudently.

As I said, in my opinion, the deciding factors are events or behaviors that cannot be explained through any natural means. Speaking in a language that has never been studied or experienced is clearly outside of any possible occurrence. Knowing about things that are hidden or future events that come true are clearly outside of any possible occurrence. Having physical events occur that cannot be explained are things that occur outside of possible occurrences. In addition, none of those characteristics are symptoms of mental illness. Therefore, and as I said, if I was asked to identify criteria, I would make one or two of those three criteria mandatory and then the others optional.

IMO, if someone is fragile, ouija boards, seances, drugs, alcohol or whatever can make someone vulnerable to either possession or mental illness. Actually, you might not have to be fragile to be put at risk.

Frankly, there is zero reason to engage in any of these things or put oneself in any situation that can increase risk of anything. Just stay away and you don't have to worry that something like that has caused anything.

[D B Sweeney]

In addition, there is no rule that says a person who has mental illness may not also be under some kind of malevolent attack

There are no rules but there is a school of thought called scientific understanding that questions the concept of 'malevolent attack' that stands outside mental delusion, illness, multiple personality disorder and fantasy prone personality.

Unexplained does not mean unexplainable.

the intensity of an exorcism could in fact exacerbate mental illness

I agree with this entirely and in many cases, intervention of this nature has made the inflicted individual worse not better.

if someone is fragile, ouija boards, seances, drugs, alcohol or whatever can make someone vulnerable to either possession or mental illness. Actually, you might not have to be fragile to be put at risk.

Agree 100%. Irrational belief when one is in a vunerable state of mind is
almost as dangerous as a loaded gun.

Frankly, there is zero reason to engage in any of these things or put oneself in any situation that can increase risk of anything. Just stay away and you don't have to worry that something like that has caused anything.

Excellent point and very sensible advice.

Great post Mari.

DB

[lightkeeper]

Mari & DB,
Thanks for your thoughtful/informative replies to my questions.

[snapdragon928]

(03-28-2011 01:29 AM)Fiona Wrote:  Perhaps the allaged "classic symptoms" of possession have become that list because it has all happened repeatedly to people over the years. Does that mean there is simply something in common with those people (mental illness?) or that they are being influenced by outside forces? I have read about cases before where someone was able to talk Latin when they weren't able to before, and another where a young boy could speak German despite his young age.

UglyNRude mentioned tourettes syndrome.... I won't pretend I know a lot about this because I don't, but isn't tourettes more of a general set of words that an individual repeats all the time, or spasms of noises, rather than whole sentences of a foreign language? I can imagine aversion to Holy Objects might be a mental issue, but if a person is really suddenly -out of nowhere - talking German or Latin or whatever it might be, then that is surely more than tourettes or mental illness?
Plus I think tourettes is something somebody lives with for years, rather than a few single instances of it during certain periods, but I admit I don't know about this to any depth.

This stuff is interesting, but not proof in itself of anything. Sorry I'm rambling now! I actually tend to agree with Scarygirl in the sense that, if this stuff was all to be true, I could find it easier to imagine the demonic thing happening in a much more subtle fashion.

Having said that, if there are many people over the years who have displayed those symptoms, are we always to believe that these people are mentally ill? If so, are they really in that state of mind to plan the trickery of movement of objects, to protest only to crosses and bibles? Having worked for several years with acute schizophrenics, I admit that I've never seen even one of those types of symptoms being displayed by those people.

You are right about the tourette syndrome. It is usually noises or certain words, including swear words, it wouldn't be a language someone didn't know that they could suddenly speak clearly. There is a waxing and waning of symptoms, so it comes and goes, but it allways comes back. You can tell the difference. Normally this is an infliction from childhood on.
Although my husband did think there were demonic forces at work when I began swearing with every other word. It was just tourettes.

[John_M]

(03-31-2011 12:22 PM)D B Sweeney Wrote:  In addition, there is no rule that says a person who has mental illness may not also be under some kind of malevolent attack

There are no rules but there is a school of thought called scientific understanding that questions the concept of 'malevolent attack' that stands outside mental delusion, illness, multiple personality disorder and fantasy prone personality.

Unexplained does not mean unexplainable.

the intensity of an exorcism could in fact exacerbate mental illness

I agree with this entirely and in many cases, intervention of this nature has made the inflicted individual worse not better.

if someone is fragile, ouija boards, seances, drugs, alcohol or whatever can make someone vulnerable to either possession or mental illness. Actually, you might not have to be fragile to be put at risk.

Agree 100%. Irrational belief when one is in a vunerable state of mind is
almost as dangerous as a loaded gun.

Frankly, there is zero reason to engage in any of these things or put oneself in any situation that can increase risk of anything. Just stay away and you don't have to worry that something like that has caused anything.

Excellent point and very sensible advice.

Great post Mari.

DB

DB Sweeney
I agree that we should be skeptical of any claims of demonic possession and only after a thorough investigation, when all the other options have been ruled out should we claim 'Demonic Possession'. My question is though: Do you consider all symptoms of Demonic Possession to be from the sources you Out-lined in the previous post? or are you open to the possibility of Demons existing? I am just curious. Thanks.

[celticflame]

"UglyNRude mentioned tourettes syndrome.... I won't pretend I know a lot about this because I don't, but isn't tourettes more of a general set of words that an individual repeats all the time, or spasms of noises, rather than whole sentences of a foreign language? I can imagine aversion to Holy Objects might be a mental issue, but if a person is really suddenly -out of nowhere - talking German or Latin or whatever it might be, then that is surely more than tourettes or mental illness?
Plus I think tourettes is something somebody lives with for years, rather than a few single instances of it during certain periods, but I admit I don't know about this to any depth."

I have lived with someone who has Tourettes for 40 yrs, also another friend I have known for 12 yrs who is much younger. Neither of them could speak Latin or Hebrew or, as far as I know, any other foreign "tongue" off the top of their heads. Both have extremely high IQ and are very intelligent, and have lived with it all their lives. They have very different manifestation of the Tourettes and neither swears uncontrollably. I dont think they are "possessed".

[celticflame]

I also know of a Fundamental Christian Family, (they happened to be of Asian heritage) who had several exorcism's performed on their daughter they believed was "possessed". They tried the exorcism at least 4 times and the last time it was told they tried to baptist her full body in water. She was 15 at the time and she ended up committing suicide. I say "I know of..." because she found me after this happened and came to me for help from the spirit world. She wanted to be forgiven for what she had done and there were still "evil" forces with her. I did not know her prior to this so all I could do was deal with the layers of issues and help her forgive herself. The point is, if there is mental illness with someone, (i.e. suicidal), an exorcism may drive someone to further harm.

While I cant speak for other situations, an experienced, qualified Demonologist should/would examine and cautiously evaluate before starting anything with a "possessed" person, and would never do anything to physically harm the person. In my experience, they first fully asses and know what they are getting into. (i.e. If the person has had any prior psychological and/or medical treatment.) In the two I have assisted in, there were numerous visits; the name of the Demon(s) was known prior to starting. There was no violent physical contact between the parties. However, there was shouting, and somewhat impossibly physical things being done, growling, and ancient dialect was thrown at us, which I was later told was Gaelic (I think thats what it was said to be) The person had no way of knowing that language.

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(03-30-2011 03:46 PM)lightkeeper Wrote:  How might one be able to tell the difference between a possession
or a mental illness ?
Can ouija boards & seances open a portal to possession ?

To open a "portal" and "possession" are two very different things. A portal can be opened to invite negative, or worse, beings or energy into your realm. A portal is exactly what it is defined... a doorway or entrance, just this one from a board is not just to another room, it's to another place people often don't understand.. Just because you use a board doesn't mean you will be "possessed" by evil forces from then on. You could be, but not typically. You could invite a being to just harass and follow you, causing trouble in your life. Thats not "possession". There are ways to control the extenuating circumstances from using a board with out the skills of protection, you have to know how to control and then put the controls into effect. (Thats true with many things... driving a car, alcohol use, drugs, etc...) People who play around with things that they don't understand, may get hurt. It is best to not fool around with if you don't know. It should not be a parlor "game".

Someone who may be "possessed" may not have been around a "portal" or ever used a board.

[Ishamael]

Great topic for mentioning opinions, Fiona.

Displaying super strength for one's size or capabilities
Everyone is quick to saying "adrenaline rush". Truth is: yea, it probably is, but why?
Why did this person have an adrenaline rush? Epinephrine can either be secreted by means of physical illness, or it can be triggered by fight or flight moments that one might be experiencing.
If it is a physical illness, chances are that you will find history in the family, personal history of previous instances from a certain age, and even the main sign: the physical abnormality that results in it.
The problem with many skeptics is that they treat each of these signs as individual instances, as if the rest of the symptoms were not existing. It is only one part of a whole. A single part can be dismissed, but the whole is the real problem.

Being able to talk a language unknown to victim
It is rare that the newly formed ability to speak fluently in a language, that I never knew, is a result of random happenstance and "gobblededook". I have yet to meet a single person who has gone from bilingual to knowing something like 5 languages, in the blink of an eye!

Complete change in personality
Even newly forming personality disorders have signs associated with their development. When we say "complete change in personality", (or a complete change of anything from the norm) it is radical. It is nothing like what was present before.
Also, you can't just dismiss it as a psychological illness, especially when it is coupled with all of these other symptoms. I am pretty sure that no 1 disease or illness can have all of these symptoms in common. If I'm wrong, please let me know, because that person is the new breed of human.

Objects around the person move of their own accord
Ahh, yes. So, barring any trickery on the part of the suspected possessed (IE. do some checks to make sure it is "legit"), what are the chances that new events influencing the movement of objects (of their own accord) would just so happen to coincide with the development of these other symptoms we know of the person? Looking at it from the whole, the odds are quickly leaving the favour of many the skeptic.

Aversion to Holy objects - even when the individual can't apparantly see the Holy object in question
This I am not going to even consider a symptom. It is ridiculous, and brings up an entirely new can of worms to try and sort out. Does God exist? Does God have influence?
IMO, I am sure the multitude of exorcisms that have "failed" (should they have been genuine) could attest to the fact that any or no God could exist, with the power to expel such beasts. Furthermore, if demons are beings of deceit, perhaps their cringing at our highly-held "cross" is just a way of mocking our futile attempts of trying to appeal to our "higher power" for the strength to cast them out. Who knows? Thus, I do not believe this is a bona-fied symptom.

Ability of precognition
Finally, the ability of "precognition". Or even just the ability of knowing things that the subject could not possibly know. If some of the scientists would like to spin some type of "there are points when the suspected possessee can transcend their own physicality and become attuned with the universe" support worthy of the toilet, I invite them to do it now. The same people that would try to discount the existence of demons, possession, God, angels, and anything else that creeps in the night, are also the same people that believe that there is no luck. If there is no scientific explanation for luck, explain how the "possessed" could just coincidentally "guess" what would, has, or is happening (consistently) without any way of legitimately knowing how they could attain such knowledge.

(03-27-2011 11:26 AM)Fiona Wrote:  Could it all be down to psychiatric illness? What about the precognition? The language being spoken when one has never learned it? Also, the knowledge of someone holding Holy objects if the person can't see the item in view? Could this all be explained away?

My answer to this: No. You can try, but you are appealing to a standpoint with virtually no proof.