Beliefs How far is to far?

[1TxLady]

You're welcome, SG. Jim Jones pales in comparison.

http://www.cegenglish.com/


Perhaps there is some truth to the rise up of AntiChrists...hmmmm

There are so many positions on and translations of the Second Coming, even within all the varoius Christian based doctrines/churches ... then there are the physics based ones such as The Omega Point and others....

[Ishamael]

Do you believe in God?
Yes, I do. However, you do not see me going door to door at 5 in the morning asking people if they've found Jesus. Also, the way I see God differs from the way others might see him. Call me existential rather than religious, or faithful, but it just doesn't seem as if God can exist as a single entity.

Do you believe in Jesus?
On this point, I don't know what to believe. Personally, I believe that a person by the description of Jesus could have very well existed. However, as to the nature of his being, when he was, I refer to The Last Temptation of Christ for something that seems WAY more likely. I said it once more, I'll put it out there again. If you haven't see it, watch The Last Temptation of Christ it is a masterful interpretation of an age-old story.

Do you believe in Demons?
Yes, though for separate reasons. I do not think that believing in Demons requires your belief in the existence of God. It all depends on how you conceive or believe Demons and ghosts to exist. That description is too lengthy for here.

Do you believe in faith healing?
I do not believe in the people that walk around claiming to heal with the power of God. Nor do I believe in people saying that God Himself will heal them. I do believe that a person's faith in God healing them can have extraordinary effects. When a person is so strong-willed to survive, their body fights for that as well. This healing is the power of mind over matter, and many a person has experienced this and attributed it to a divine miracle from their Lord. To each their own, they are alive, and they are well. That is all that matters.

Do you believe in exorcists?
I believe there are those select few that have the capacity for genuine exorcisms. That being said, you must believe in Demons to even hold such a belief in exorcism. Have I witnessed one? No, but I would very much like to so that I could further my own curiosity and belief.

What does it take to make you believe?
I try to logic out the existence of such things in my own head. This allows me to try and cultivate a certain set of beliefs, based off of concepts and nature, that I deem to be personally sound and valid for my own life. Other people require different evidence, I understand that.

If a person claimed to be Jesus and had a large following would you believe? How about if they have followers in over 30 countries?
How far is to far?
Once more, for me, Jesus is the "weakest link" in my conception of the relationship between God and humanity. If he existed, he was human. Thus, he was imperfect, and subject to the many imperfections of a mortal life. The more I read about him, the more I draw parallels between his outlook and those of my Osensei (Grandmaster) in my martial arts dojo. It is all about outlook. Thus, why should I care if Jesus has returned and is claiming more followers in over 30 countries, when I have my very own teacher that is teaching the same things, without the lime-light on him? Something seems a lot more humble about a small master's dojo, than a hyped up man's preaching-parade.

What about a faith healer / exorcist who claims he can heal a young autistic boy with mental retardation who is non verbal? He makes claims he can remove the demon from this young boy and put his spirit back in his body and cure him. So how far will you believe?
Everybody needs to make money somehow. I say live and let die. There is a fool born every minute. Even if natural selection did not help to evolve our own human race to what we are, it is still very much prevalent in society. How else will we learn as a species?

Belief is a wonderful thing but how far is to far?
The funny thing about belief is that it is based on one's own values and priorities. No amount of belief is too far or too little. Belief is what drives us every day. Our entire lives are based upon beliefs, and the belief that tomorrow will come, just like every other day. What gets to be too far is when people begin to take advantage of other people's beliefs. A belief can be the difference between a man committing suicide and a man holding on to that last inkling of his life. The exploitation of beliefs is the toxin that drains the ignorant of their hard-earned rewards, and leaves them with just their faith and the belief that things will get better. And that which is left is the only thing that will drive these people to further rewards, and correcting their lives. Belief's value can never be discounted or dubbed "too far". IMO.

[scarygirl67]

Darn it, UNR...you gave me your double thanks flu!! That's the last time I share a cyber-pizza with you, buddy! (it deserved double thanks, TxLady!)

These have all been really good responses to some questions we would all do good to ask ourselves now and then. And I have always felt that if a belief cannot stand up to questions or challenge, it's not worth believing in.

[justthatgirl]

(01-30-2011 02:22 PM)UglyNRude Wrote:  Everyone has beliefs but how far will you take yours? Do you believe everything? of course not but where do YOU draw the line?

Do you believe in God?
Do you believe in Jesus?
Do you believe in Demons?
Do you believe in faith healing?
Do you believe in exorcists?

What does it take to make you believe?
If a person claimed to be Jesus and had a large following would you believe? How about if they have followers in over 30 countries?
How far is to far?

What about a faith healer / exorcist who claims he can heal a young autistic boy with mental retardation who is non verbal? He makes claims he can remove the demon from this young boy and put his spirit back in his body and cure him. So how far will you believe?

Belief is a wonderful thing but how far is to far?

I think that anyone suggesting they can heal people with physical and mental disabilities by exercising a demon has major problems. That crosses the line for me.

I do not believe in 'God' or Jesus, I believe that the universe in itself is a power. I think that humans and animals have souls, and I also believe in reincarnation to a certain extent, but then again, I have had experiences with spirit or ghost type things.

But crossing the line for me is when people push their beliefs onto others. Anything that causes physical or emotional harm and distress is taking it too far.

[D B Sweeney]

Good post UNR with some interesting responses so far.

Do you believe in God?
I'd have to ask which one - the God of Abraham or the God of the Norsemen or the ancient Greeks?. I'd have to answer
that I don't believe in any gods ancient or modern. IMO gods were originally mans way of trying to explain what he didn't understand
and over many tens of thousands of years evolved and grew into the monotheistic religions we associate with the word 'god' today.

Do you believe in Jesus?
I believe there may have been such a person but the actual evidence is at best patchy. Since I don't believe in God I don't
believe that Jesus was his son nor an earthly incarnation of God himself. At best (IMO of course) Jesus was a radical preacher come
quasi-revolutionary who wanted to see an end to the corruption and inequality inherent in a society that was under rule from Rome.

Do you believe in Demons?
I believe in mans ability to commit evil that has in the past been seen as 'demonic'. I believe that many people
believe in demonic possession and that many individuals believe that they are possessed. However I don't believe
in Demons for the same reasons I don't believe in Angels or God.

Do you believe in Faith Healing?
Another no from me on that one - probably due to the sheer lack of valid medical evidence.

Do you believe in exorcists?
I believe that there are people that themselves believe that they have the power to exorcise demons and as I've said above I believe that
there are individuals who genuinely believe they are possessed by demons. The placebo effect has long been a very powerful healer and
faith is just as strong in the right circumstances. I would never underestimate either.

If an individual who claimed to have divine authority performed some feat or feats that defied science under controlled conditions then I'd
believe we were witnessing someone with powers that defied science and therefore necessitate the rewriting of the laws of physics.
Whether that person was the son of god or god himself I'd still be quite sceptical about unless his or her extraordinary claim was matched by
extraordinary evidence.
The number of followers a claimant may have is irrelevant and has no bearing on the veracity of the claim.

Belief and faith are often wonderful things that have been at the heart of many good works but also many bad. Too far is when belief is imposed
and made mandatory, when questioning belief is frowned upon or punished, when it causes harm and prevents other courses of action that
sidestep belief in favour of knowledge.

DB

[scarygirl67]

We may not agree on everything, DB, but one statement you said really stood out for me.

(02-03-2011 09:22 AM)D B Sweeney Wrote:  The placebo effect has long been a very powerful healer and
faith is just as strong in the right circumstances. I would never underestimate either.

I completely agree with you there. I am a firm believer in the power of belief.

[D B Sweeney]

Thanks ScaryGirl67,

Polite disagreement is the powerhouse of forums. I'd never stay on a forum where everyone agreed with me

DB

[snapdragon928]

(01-30-2011 02:22 PM)UglyNRude Wrote:  Everyone has beliefs but how far will you take yours? Do you believe everything? of course not but where do YOU draw the line?

Do you believe in God?
Do you believe in Jesus?
Do you believe in Demons?
Do you believe in faith healing?
Do you believe in exorcists?

What does it take to make you believe?
If a person claimed to be Jesus and had a large following would you believe? How about if they have followers in over 30 countries?
How far is to far?

What about a faith healer / exorcist who claims he can heal a young autistic boy with mental retardation who is non verbal? He makes claims he can remove the demon from this young boy and put his spirit back in his body and cure him. So how far will you believe?

Belief is a wonderful thing but how far is to far?

Is this the boy that died during an exorcism. I have had people want to do faith healing on my son who is nonverbal autistic. We let them pray over him, for their own sake. But we believe he is made to be who he is. Would it be wonderful if he could talk and didn't have behaviours Sure, but he is what he is, the faith healing did nothing. I would not allow excrcism ever that is just crazy. And pointless. That is too far. What they did to that boy was too far!
I would not believe a jesus walking the earth with followers, even if over half the country. It just isn't true. That is not how he returns.

[CareTaker]

This is an excellent thread, sorry I havent been around much but I have been so busy with work and family and everything else that it seems I hardly have time for anything. I really enjoyed this discussion!