The problem with this question is that it can be argued forever because for there to be a right answer you would have to believe that things written in the bible really happened.All of you that give bible quotes are not proving anything because you are just quoting something that you believe to be true but still not providing any proof.I'm not bashing anyone for there beliefs I'm just saying that unless you believe everything in the bible is true(I myself don't believe anything in the bible to be true)you can talk until you are blue in the face and still not come up with an answer.I myself don't believe in the devil so to me there is no answer since there can't be a question.

Depends on who is doing the counting and which Bible one is using.

(11-24-2009 02:55 PM)Graveyard Hound Wrote:  Depends on who is doing the counting and which Bible one is using.

Exactly..

Let's look at it differently for a minute, which folks killed more for their God, taking the Crusades for example, the Christians or the followers of Islam.That way it's easier to handle, body count wise and isn't put on such a grand cosmic scale.

Didn't God also kill to prove a point?
Eh.. Theyre both as bad as eachother.

There are a few inherent flaws in the "Satan" argument to begin with IMO.

First off, there is a very weak biblical argument for "Satan" as most modern Christians think of him. The Satan, or accuser, is a station or title. Several different beings occupied this role in the old testament. "Adversary" was another meaning but it refers to adversary of MAN, not God. The Satans role was to point out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind, a "prosecuting attorney". Satans actions against Job were sanctioned by God in order to prove Job's faith. I say again, the "Satan" is a servant of God.
Common belief is that "Satan" is also the serpent in Genesis. There is also no evidence for this in the old testament. It wasn't until revelations that the serpent was equated with the "Satan" in retrospect, many years after the original stories were written. In Revelations 20:2 "The great dragon was hurled down -- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray...". Thats it. The validity of revelations is not very solid either honestly, from a sholarly perspective and probably doesn't belong in the bible at all.
The "Lucifer" name is also never linked to the "Satan" in the bible. The idea that "Lucifer" is a fallen angel is due to an interpretation of Isaiah 14:12, "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations." This has been changed in many bibles used in america but the above is as close of a literal translation I could find. "Lucifer" is the latin for "Daystar or Morningstar", hence the confusion. Its thought to refer to the kings of Babylon and Tyre by some. Again, NO direct link to the "Satan".
The VAST majority of literary "links" between the Devil, Satan, Morningstar, etc come from OUTSIDE the Bible itself. Dante's Inferno is a good example of a non-biblical work who's content has crept into the modern Christian mythology and lexicon, often taken as fact and assumed to be biblically supported. Its not.

The concept of an equalizing force of darkness and evil to balance the opposing light and good of God arises primarily from Christianities absorbing of regions which were heavily infuenced by Zoroastrianism. This attitude of "Black and White" wasn't prevelant at all in earlier Abrahamic traditions. Yahweh was HOLY, not really good or evil. He was beyond such labels or mortal judgment.

As Christianity evolved and absorbed different cultures, they have "Demonized" the native mythology by merging traits of the local gods with those of "Satan" or "Demons". Most modern Christians view of the devil is a very close description of Satyrs, or Pan/Faunus. You would never have thought Mr Tumnus was the Devil huh?

I also think most who believe in the modern view of the "Devil" haven't really considered the implications of all the beliefs. Lets face it. Noone knows the answers to these questions for sure. Its all what we believe. You at least should be logically internally consistant with what you believe.

Either god is all powerful and has no peer, meaning he has no opposite and equal opposing force to act "against" him. (more like the god of Abraham)

Or

God and "Satan" are roughly equal in power, meaning he can act against and opposite to god if he wishes. Plotting his downfall, foiling his plans, etc. (more like the modern Zoroastrian influenced view) Its a great chess match with all of creation.

I'm sure many will argue that god "allows" him to do as he does. Well, that makes him Gods servant. NOT an opposing force. He does Gods will by acting as he does. If God is the ultimate authority and power then all that happens is HIS will. I dont think many have given much thought to the implications of Omnicience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence. If he truly KNOWS all things and exists outside of time, then all that happens is his will, as he knows the outcome of all before the creation of any. If ALL is Gods will then there is no "Evil" or need of a "Devil" to blame of the ills of the world. Its merely US using Anthropomorphism to try to understand the divine the only way we know how. Attributing human emotional conditions (love, wrath) and our moral relativism to the Divine. God exists beyond the reach of good, evil, right, wrong, light, dark, or any other petty moral interpretation we would place on him.

The problem is, as Christianity evolved and absorbed influences from other faiths, it never reevaluated its internal logic. People merely assumed ALL phases of its evolution as "Right and true". Some later ideas dont mesh with earlier beliefs very well. After awhile, with noone doing quality control, Christianity has become something completely different than it was in Christ day (dont even get me started on the romans highjacking the faith), yet clung to its outdated beliefs as well. What Christ preached was VERY different than what Moses or Abraham believed. Yet somehow, everyone seems to think that what they believe is an unbroken line dating back to eden.

Crap its late lol. I got on a roll and went with it. Didn't plan to write that much.

I dont claim to know everything or even that I KNOW i'm right. I'm not an ideolog but a philosopher. I try to keep an open mind and think for myself. I am pretty sure that i'm on to something with my line of thought. I tried to provide examples and actual passages above so others could look for themselves, agreeing or disagreeing. Its late and I think I got the passages right. If I got them wrong or babbled to much I apoligize ahead of time.

(09-25-2010 02:04 AM)WildcatNC Wrote:  There are a few inherent flaws in the "Satan" argument to begin with IMO.

First off, there is a very weak biblical argument for "Satan" as most modern Christians think of him. The Satan, or accuser, is a station or title. Several different beings occupied this role in the old testament. "Adversary" was another meaning but it refers to adversary of MAN, not God. The Satans role was to point out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind, a "prosecuting attorney". Satans actions against Job were sanctioned by God in order to prove Job's faith. I say again, the "Satan" is a servant of God.
Common belief is that "Satan" is also the serpent in Genesis. There is also no evidence for this in the old testament. It wasn't until revelations that the serpent was equated with the "Satan" in retrospect, many years after the original stories were written. In Revelations 20:2 "The great dragon was hurled down -- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray...". Thats it. The validity of revelations is not very solid either honestly, from a sholarly perspective and probably doesn't belong in the bible at all.
The "Lucifer" name is also never linked to the "Satan" in the bible. The idea that "Lucifer" is a fallen angel is due to an interpretation of Isaiah 14:12, "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations." This has been changed in many bibles used in america but the above is as close of a literal translation I could find. "Lucifer" is the latin for "Daystar or Morningstar", hence the confusion. Its thought to refer to the kings of Babylon and Tyre by some. Again, NO direct link to the "Satan".
The VAST majority of literary "links" between the Devil, Satan, Morningstar, etc come from OUTSIDE the Bible itself. Dante's Inferno is a good example of a non-biblical work who's content has crept into the modern Christian mythology and lexicon, often taken as fact and assumed to be biblically supported. Its not.

The concept of an equalizing force of darkness and evil to balance the opposing light and good of God arises primarily from Christianities absorbing of regions which were heavily infuenced by Zoroastrianism. This attitude of "Black and White" wasn't prevelant at all in earlier Abrahamic traditions. Yahweh was HOLY, not really good or evil. He was beyond such labels or mortal judgment.

As Christianity evolved and absorbed different cultures, they have "Demonized" the native mythology by merging traits of the local gods with those of "Satan" or "Demons". Most modern Christians view of the devil is a very close description of Satyrs, or Pan/Faunus. You would never have thought Mr Tumnus was the Devil huh?

I also think most who believe in the modern view of the "Devil" haven't really considered the implications of all the beliefs. Lets face it. Noone knows the answers to these questions for sure. Its all what we believe. You at least should be logically internally consistant with what you believe.

Either god is all powerful and has no peer, meaning he has no opposite and equal opposing force to act "against" him. (more like the god of Abraham)

Or

God and "Satan" are roughly equal in power, meaning he can act against and opposite to god if he wishes. Plotting his downfall, foiling his plans, etc. (more like the modern Zoroastrian influenced view) Its a great chess match with all of creation.

I'm sure many will argue that god "allows" him to do as he does. Well, that makes him Gods servant. NOT an opposing force. He does Gods will by acting as he does. If God is the ultimate authority and power then all that happens is HIS will. I dont think many have given much thought to the implications of Omnicience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence. If he truly KNOWS all things and exists outside of time, then all that happens is his will, as he knows the outcome of all before the creation of any. If ALL is Gods will then there is no "Evil" or need of a "Devil" to blame of the ills of the world. Its merely US using Anthropomorphism to try to understand the divine the only way we know how. Attributing human emotional conditions (love, wrath) and our moral relativism to the Divine. God exists beyond the reach of good, evil, right, wrong, light, dark, or any other petty moral interpretation we would place on him.

The problem is, as Christianity evolved and absorbed influences from other faiths, it never reevaluated its internal logic. People merely assumed ALL phases of its evolution as "Right and true". Some later ideas dont mesh with earlier beliefs very well. After awhile, with noone doing quality control, Christianity has become something completely different than it was in Christ day (dont even get me started on the romans highjacking the faith), yet clung to its outdated beliefs as well. What Christ preached was VERY different than what Moses or Abraham believed. Yet somehow, everyone seems to think that what they believe is an unbroken line dating back to eden.

Crap its late lol. I got on a roll and went with it. Didn't plan to write that much.

I dont claim to know everything or even that I KNOW i'm right. I'm not an ideolog but a philosopher. I try to keep an open mind and think for myself. I am pretty sure that i'm on to something with my line of thought. I tried to provide examples and actual passages above so others could look for themselves, agreeing or disagreeing. Its late and I think I got the passages right. If I got them wrong or babbled to much I apoligize ahead of time.

Ha, Mr Tumnus !
I enjoyed reading that. I love to read other people's views because there is no one view on this subject. Ive never been religious and never used to believe in Heaven,Hell,God and the Devil. But there must be something like that but we wont know what until we pass over, maybe.
Maybe God is the bad guy? Christianity is no way a rosy religion. You hear allot of BS about Christianity and you dont hear of 'satanists' do you? I hate that Christianity, all religion infact, has pretty much taken over people's lives. & the world.
Maybe i shouldnt of said God is the bad guy, but his followers? Just a bunch of radicals.

(09-25-2010 02:19 AM)NORMA JEANE PHOENIX Wrote:  Ha, Mr Tumnus !
I enjoyed reading that. I love to read other people's views because there is no one view on this subject. Ive never been religious and never used to believe in Heaven,Hell,God and the Devil. But there must be something like that but we wont know what until we pass over, maybe.
Maybe God is the bad guy? Christianity is no way a rosy religion. You hear allot of BS about Christianity and you dont hear of 'satanists' do you? I hate that Christianity, all religion infact, has pretty much taken over people's lives. & the world.
Maybe i shouldnt of said God is the bad guy, but his followers? Just a bunch of radicals.

IMO once you "organize" a system of beliefs and ideas and start to establish leaders and churches, etc. Its all downhill. Spirituality is not the problem, its organized religion.

Once an institution is established, it becomes primarily concerned with its own power and authority and the maintenance or expansion of said power. It doesn't matter if its churches, government, unions, etc. The very nature of an institution puts it on collision course with corruption and human nature.

Jesus would abhor the idea of an institutionalized megalith like the Roman Catholic church IMO. The romans knew what they were doing though. They highjacked the budding christian faith and created one of the most powerful and influential institutions to ever exist.

(09-25-2010 11:27 PM)WildcatNC Wrote:  IMO once you "organize" a system of beliefs and ideas and start to establish leaders and churches, etc. Its all downhill. Spirituality is not the problem, its organized religion.

Thank you!! I 100% agree!

(09-26-2010 07:49 AM)scarygirl67 Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 11:27 PM)WildcatNC Wrote:  IMO once you "organize" a system of beliefs and ideas and start to establish leaders and churches, etc. Its all downhill. Spirituality is not the problem, its organized religion.

Thank you!! I 100% agree!

As do I. One of my favorite saying is "Dear God, please save me from your followers".

As far as who killed more in the bible, it was God. He is a God of love and mercy. He is also a God of great wrath when His people screw up those same ideals.